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Goku's stats and how Death Battle screwed up

1/11/13 4:20pm

You can't use power levels halfway.

First off, I don't care that Superman won the Death Battle. What I care about is that Death Battle completely got Goku's stats wrong.

Death Battle horribly contradicts themselves when they say they're not gonna use power levels. They apply the Super Saiyan multipliers to what they calculated as Goku's base stats, yet Super Saiyan multipliers are just increases to Goku's base power level. This is shown in Daizenshuu 7. http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/2931/yehbiatch7zt.jpg

Goku's base power level was 3 million, then Super Saiyan increased that to 150 million. Thus Super Saiyan increases Goku's power level by x50. The problem I have with Death Battle is that they say power levels are meaningless, and then they take something that just increases power levels, and they apply that linearly to Goku's overall power. Super Saiyan is a power level increase of x50,  they say that equates to Goku being exactly 50 times stronger, by their logic, power levels are a 1 to 1 increase in overall power. Since 50=50, then logically, power levels do have meaning. For some reason that I cannot comprehend, they have chosen to ignore power levels from other sources, even though that is comparatively a small amount of Goku's power.

Another thing about power levels. They claim that power levels mean nothing, and that the villains underestimate people because of their lower power levels. That's simply not consistent with what we're shown. The truth is, the person with the higher power level is always shown to hold the physical advantage, and barring cheese tactics such as Ginyu's body switching, the person with the higher power level usually wins. Don't believe me? Let's cite some examples.

Raditz: Power level of 1500. He is beaten through the efforts of Goku, Gohan and Piccolo. It's unknown exactly what Goku's power level was in this fight. Goku is last seen at 950 and still rising, while Piccolo tops out at 1440 and Gohan tops out at 1307. Goku's kamehameha wave was not powerful enough to hurt Raditz. After being worn down in battle, Gohan is able to damage Raditz enough that a combination of Goku holding him down, and Piccolo's special beam cannon were able to finish him off. In general though, Raditz was the superior fighter, and it was only by working as a team against the stronger opponent that the heroes were able to bring him down. And in the end he was defeated by a high power level attack after his energy reserves have been drained to well below their maximum levels, making his effective power level much lower than 1500.

Nappa: Power level of 4000. He is fought by Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Tien, Chaiotzu, and later, Goku. They clock in respectively at 3500, 3000 (Gohan's varies throughout the fight), 1770, 1830, 610, and 8000. Nappa basically toys with the team, and despite their best efforts and their tactics, Nappa beats them with raw brute force. Then Goku shows up on the battlefield and dances around Nappa effortlessly. Nappa briefly manages to keep Goku at bay by expending large amounts of power, and then Goku effectively cripples him by using the Kaio-Ken. Goku's higher power level is too much for Nappa to overcome.

Vegeta: Power level of 18000. He is mainly fought by Goku, though Krillin, Gohan and Yajirobe later come into the fight. Krillin and Gohan are at their previously listed levels, while Yajirobe has a power level of  970. This fight is perhaps the best of example of power levels having a significant value. Vegeta stays at 18000 for most of the fight, while Goku uses the Kaio-Ken to raise his power level several times. With the regular Kaio-Ken, Goku's power level goes up to 16000, which is still lower than Vegeta's, and as shown in the battle itself, Vegeta still holds the advantage. During their beam struggle, Vegeta starts to have serious issues when Goku uses the Kaio-Ken x3, raising his power level to 24000. Goku then completely overpowers Vegeta when he raises his power level to 32000 with the Kaio-Ken x4. That's all I really have to say about this battle, as the rest of it is against a weakened Vegeta with help from other characters. It clearly shows though that higher power level = more output.

Cui: Cui has a power level of 18000. After his battle with Goku, Vegeta's power level has risen to 24000. Vegeta murders Cui easily, killing him in 1 blow after Cui dumps a large amount of energy into one attack.

Dodoria: He has a power level of 22000. Much like Cui, he's killed by Vegeta. We don't have a perfectly current reading on Vegeta, but he was 24000 in the previous fight, and it's likely he remained at around that level.

Zarbon: Power level 23000. Vegeta starts off the fight with a clear advantage, but Zarbon transforms, gaining an unknown amount of power, and he then proceeds to beat Vegeta senseless. After some time Vegeta's wounds heal and he comes back stronger than ever. With his new power level of 30000 Vegeta kills Zarbon in his transformed state.

Ginyu Force: The power levels of most of the Ginyu Force aren't stated exactly, and this is kind of the start of power levels being phased out. There are a lot of fan made power levels for them, including some video games, but none of these can be verified to be accurate. The fight starts with Gohan and Krillin and Guldo. Gohan and Krillin have power levels of 14000 and 13000 respectively. Guldo's power level is unknown, but he appears to have a disadvantage until he turns the tables with his time freeze and telepathic abilities. He's killed in one hit by Vegeta. Vegeta's power level is still 30000, a fact that doesn't worry the Ginyu Force. Recoome easily beats Vegeta, although he sustains some minor damage. Recoome then easily beats Gohan and Krillin. At this point Goku, shows up, with a power level of 90000. This scene is rather important to me, as it was one of the main scenes Death Battle showed when talking about how meaningless power levels were. When the Ginyu Force looks at Goku's power level with their scouters they get a reading of 5000. This is what leads the Ginyu Force to underestimate Goku, not his true power level of 90000. Death Battle's conclusion is based on a false premise. It's not power levels that are flawed, but the devices that the Ginyu Force used to measure them. This is because Goku and the other Z Warriors are capable of "hiding" or supressing their power levels. Vegeta on the other hand was able to feel Goku's power and it was so great it terrified him, and actually made Vegeta think that Goku had become a Super Saiyan. Goku defeats Recoome in one blow. He then toys with Burter and Jeice for a while, until he decides to defeat Burter in one blow. Jeice runs away and gets Captain Ginyu. Upon arriving at the battlefield, Ginyu scolds Jeice for relying on the scouter, saying that Goku can instantly raise his power level to much higher levels. Ginyu's power level is 120,000, and he speculates that Goku's real power level is 60000, a number that shocks Jeice. Since he wasn't surprised that Goku defeated Recoome, Burter and Jeice, it's likely that the three of them possess power levels lower than 60000. Goku then powers up and uses the Kaio-Ken, raising his power level to 180,000, which terrifies Ginyu. Ginyu does manage to defeat Goku using his body switching tactic. Ginyu heavily wounds himself, then uses an ability to switch bodies with Goku. Ginyu is then defeated with teamwork from Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Goku. Goku of course gets his body back.

Frieza vs Nail: I'm gonna break Frieza down into multiple fights, since he hangs around for so long. Nail has a power level of 42000, Frieza has a power level of 530,000 in his first form. Frieza beats Nail with zero effort.

Frieza vs Vegeta, Gohan, Krillin and Piccolo: Frieza's power level is the same. Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin have power levels of 250,000, 200,000 and 75000 respectively. Piccolo isn't there at the start. The long and short of it is that Frieza toys with them until he gets bored and decides to transform, at which point his exact power level is unknown, but he states that it is over 1,000,000. Frieza continues to toy with them, easily beating them to a pulp. Even a sustained attack by an enraged Gohan fails to inflict any damage on Frieza. Piccolo then shows up to save the day. His power level is roughly even with Frieza's. They fight evenly for a while, then Frieza transforms again to defeat Piccolo. Gohan then taps into his hidden power and comes dangerously close to wounding Frieza. Frieza transforms again. Vegeta attempts to increase his strength by having Krillin nearly kill him and then having Dende heal him. This increases Vegeta's power level to the point that he is stronger than Piccolo, but he's still not as strong as Final Form Frieza.

Frieza vs Goku: Goku arrives on the battlefield with a power level of 3,000,000. Yes, just getting beat up by Ginyu and then recovering from his injuries made Goku jump from 90000, to 3,000,000, a x33.3 increase in power level. Frieza's power level at just 50% of his maximum though is 60,000,000. Throughout their incredibly long fight Goku barely manages to hurt Frieza, even with a Kaio-Ken x20 boosting his power level to 60,000,000. After the spirit bomb fails to kill Frieza, Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, increasing his power level ot 150,000,000. He then easily dominates Frieza, who then powers up to his 100% Final Form, reaching a power level of 120,000,000. They continue to fight for a while, then Goku goes back to dominating him. This is the last time power levels are officially mentioned in the series. In every case, the person with the higher power level either wins or has a significant combat advantage that can only be overcome through teamwork and other circumstances unique to each battle. Not once do power levels falter as a useful measurement system, and to suggest otherwise is just bogus, and to anyone that disagrees I seriously question if we watched the same show or read the same manga.

I've talked a lot about power levels, now I want to break down Death Battle's analysis of Goku's stats.

Strength: Death Battle says Goku can lift up to 160,000 tons. This is so incorrect I think it gave me cancer. Basically, Death Battle was fooled in the exact same way as the Ginyu Force. Instead of explaining what happened here, I'm just gonna link to an older blog I wrote back in October where I specifically address this misleading scene. http://www.screwattack.com/news/goku-vs-superman-physical-strength

Either way, trying to calculate Goku's strength is useless. Goku doesn't punch with strength, he punches with ki. This is shown in a very visual way in episode 66 when Vegeta explains what happened when Goku elbowed Recoome. What they should have tried to do is just calculate Goku's output, and say that his striking power is equal to that.

Speed: Also so wrong I think it gave me cancer. Now, they aren't entirely wrong on this one. I am very impressed with the math they did concerning Snake Way. The problem once again comes back to power levels. They say power levels are meaningless, and as such they use a fairly good speed calculation from back when Goku had a power level of 8000, (probably closer to 5000 since he hadn't powered up yet) the problem though is that the very demonstration they use to show Goku's speed also disproves the premise that that demonstration is meant to reinforce. What is the difference between Goku's first run of Snake Way that took 177 days, and his second run that took 28 hours? Well, aside from the difference of flying vs running which Death Battle already accounted for, the only other difference is Goku's power level went up from around 950 to 5000-8000. The power level increase made his run faster. They then calculate Goku's seed as if he went SS4 right then and there. SS4, as they have noted, is a x4000 increase from base form. So, assuming a power level of 5000 for Goku's run, they calculated Goku's speed for him having a power level of 20,000,000, less than the power level he had when he used the Kaio-Ken x10 against Frieza. If they really wanted a unified theory that doesn't contradict itself then they should have tried to calculate Goku's maximum power level, and determine his speed based on that together with the data they got from their Snake Way experiment. They are essentially already using power levels, they just substituted actual power levels for their gravity formula, which, while rather inventive, as I noted earlier, it's based on a misleading scene. So what's Goku's power level? I'll get to that later.

Durability/ki output: Once again, their calculation is essentially based on power levels, but they ignore later data points. They have calculated Goku's durability in a fairly accurate way, if his base power level was equal to 32000, his power level when he used the Kaio-Ken x4. Basically, they took 32000*4000 and calculated that his durability was 35 sextillion megatons. In other words, they calculated Goku's durability as if he had a power level of 128,000,000. Just slightly over that of Final Form Frieza. I do however agree with their analysis that his ki output is equal to his durability, and in theory, his striking power should be equal to that as well.

Power Scaling: The way they dismiss power scaling is rather silly, and doesn't quite get the point of it. Power scaling, as they put it, is the assumption that any feat displayed by a lower power character can be duplicated by a higher one. This is for the most part, true, and I don't much like how they dismiss it without evidence. There are some exceptions. For example, Goku doesn't know Ginyu's body switching technique, and he doesn't have Buu's regeneration. But, barring obvious character specific abilities, this has been shown to be true. If character x is stronger than character y, and character y is stronger than character x, then character x is stronger than character y. Logically, this applies to all generic feats of strength/durability/speed/output. If character x is stronger than character y, and character y blows up a planet with a basic ki blast, then character x should be able to do the same. This is actually a mathematical principle called Transitive relation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_relation

Goku's Power Level: As I've said before, Goku's highest stated power level is 150 million against Frieza., with his base power level being 3 million. Some easy math that anyone can do is just applying Super Saiyan 4 to that base power level. 3,000,000 *4000=12,000,000,000. While 12 billion is impressive, if you actually know a few things about the show, you can go further. In episode 154, after Vegeta comes out of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku states that Vegeta would have had to have gotten at least 3 times stronger to stand a chance against Cell. Vegeta then proceeds to beat Cell to a pulp easily until Cell absorbs Android 18. Goku then comes out of the time chamber in episode 169 and asks Korin to gauge his power against what he sensed from Cell. Goku then powers up, and the power that he outputs actually scares Vegeta, indicating that Goku is > Vegeta. Goku then reveals that he was only using half his actual power. This shows that Goku is now at least 6 times stronger than he was against Frieza. 3,000,000*6=18,000,000. 18,000,000*4000=72,000,000,000. While a power level of 72 billion is impressive, it still doesn't stop there. In GT, Goku fights General Rildo, during this fight, Goku states that Rilldo is 5 times stronger than Majin Buu. Goku was shown to be roughly equal with Kid Buu when he was SS3. Using the previous base of 18 million, times 400 for the SS3 multiplier, Goku and Buu's power levels were around 7,200,000,000. When Goku states that Rilldo is 5 times stronger than Buu, that is when Rilldo is in his base form. And Goku was stronger than Rilldo's base form without transforming into a Super Saiyan. This means Goku's new base power level is 7,200,000,000*5=36,000,000,000. Therefore, his power level as SS4 is 36,000,000,000*4000=144,000,000,000,000.

Therefore, Goku's power level as a Super Saiyan 4 is at least 144 trillion. That is 1,125,000x the effective power level of Death Battle's durability calculation. So multiplying the 35 septillion MT that Death Battle came up with by 1.125 million to account for their mistakes we come up with ~39.375 nonillion megatons for Goku's durability and output. Since they calculated Superman's durability at 10 octillion megatons, that means Goku can punch with almost 4000 times the maximum durability of Superman. Pretty sure that's a one shot. How about speed? 144 trillion/20 million=7,200,000. Yes, Goku is 7.2 million times faster than they said he is. So I'm just going to multiply their speed for Goku by 7.2 million, which is 18,000,000,000,000,000. Yes, that's 18 quadrillion km/hr. That means Goku is almost 2 million times faster than Superman.

But wait! There's more!: This will be the final section of my blog. I haven't been entirely honest about Goku's power level, there is one other data point that massively increases it. I chose not to include this in my main section for two reasons, the first of which is that it relies on a few more assumptions than the other parts of my blog, and the other reason is that the numbers get so high my calculator won't be able to display them properly, and I'm too lazy to calculate out the exact stats by hand. This power increase comes from a statement made by Supreme Kai in episode 219, where he claims that he is 1000 times stronger than Frieza. That puts his power level at 120 billion. It's shown, quite clearly in both the show and the manga that Supreme Kai is inferior to the Saiyans, even in base form. This is significant on its own, for obvious reasons, but there's more to it than that. In Kibito's entry in the Daizenshuu, it says that Kibito is equal to base form Gohan. This is significant because Supreme Kai and Kibito fuse with the earrings. On page 63 of the Super Exciting Guide it's stated that fusion via the earrings is multiplication of power levels. This means Kibito Kai's power level was 14,400,000,000,000,000,000,000. 14.4 Sextillion. And as you know if you've ever seen/read DBZ, Kibito Kai was deemed too weak to fight against Kid Buu. All of the previous GT power level stuff applies, like Goku's base form in GT being 5 times stronger than Buu, and SS4 being 4000 times stronger than that. Assuming Supreme Kai is equal to SS3 Goku, (not likely, but I'm underestimating Goku to make a point) that means GT Goku actually has a power level of 72,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 72 Sextillion. Then we still have to multiply that by 4000, which is 288,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. 288 Septillion. If anyone wants to calculate Goku's durability/output/speed based on that, they're welcome to do so, but that's where I draw the line on large numbers. To do so you simply need to divide Goku's power level by the effective power levels achieved by Death Battle's speed/durability calculations, (20 million and 128 million respectively) and then multiply the results by the megatons and km/hr that Death Battle came up with.

I also want to take a quick sec to debunk what Death Battle said about Goku not being able to survive/breathe in space. The following is a trailer for the new DBZ movie coming out in 2013. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmWTw09V4UQ Goku and Bills are clearly fighting in space. This movie was written by Akira Toriyama, there should be no dispute as to its status as canon. Also, if you know the DBZ timeline, you'd know that a Super Saiyan destroyed the original Saiyan homeworld and forced an interplanetary migration over 1000 years before the Arcosians inducted the Saiyans into the planet trade organization, gifting them with space flight technology. The only people that have ever stated that Saiyans can't "breathe" in space are Frieza and King Kai. Frieza is a moron, and is far from a credible source, and King Kai only said this after Frieza did, so it's very possible that he could have just been taking Frieza's words at face value.


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