OFDBFB Update: The Cloud VS. Link Verdict and the Unwritten Rules of DEATH BATTLE!
Written By G1s... Samuraispartan7000, LousyTactician, psb123, Akuma Th
We'll be discussing the verdict to the newest match, respond to some commenters, give our own thoughts on the 3D animation, the upcoming DEATH BATTLE, the problem that comes with evaluating RPG characters and our very own Samurai Spartan will even make up two new terms.
Welcome back g1s to the Official DEATH BATTLE Fan Blog and what a couple of past few days it has been. The conclusion to what is likely the most fiercely debated match so far has been reached and what may be an even more fiercely debated match could be coming soon! We’ve got a lot to cover in this blog, so we aren’t wasting any time.
But before we get started let’s just settle this before it becomes an issue. If you read our prediction blog, you will know that we here at the ODBFB do agree with the fight’s result. No questions there.
We acknowledge that it is important to call on DEATH BATTLE when we feel that it has committed a violation, but we don’t really think that has happened here.
But again, it’s important to explain why we think that. So even if you heard our reasoning in the prediction blog before, don’t be surprised if you hear it again. Our word is no more supreme than yours, but just hear us out. Cool? Alright, IT’S TIME FOR A DEATH BATTLE!!!!!!!
Given how heated of a match this one was and still is, cherry-picking for the comments that are genuinely good or bring up valid points and ignoring the ones that are just over-reactive rage isn’t easy (we’re referring to supporters of BOTH sides when we say this). However, the DEATH BATTLE Fan Team has found some. We might not agree with everything said in these comments, but the fact that their posters were level-headed enough to kindly discuss it out is more than enough for us. We mean no offense to the people whose comments we’ll be showing in this blog and any g1 quoted here who feels uncomfortable with their comment being in this blog only needs to say so and we’ll remove it.
LousyTactician: I’ll start out by looking at a fairly lengthy (reminds me of many of my own posts) comment made by g1 TWOxACROSS and his complaints about how DEATH BATTLE analyzed the fight.
To start off Zelda has no definitive timeline and while split theories are the most commonly accepted, I believe DEATH BATTLE fused the combined knowledge of the Links due to the fact that they were making a 'composite' form of him not because there is definitive proof that the knowledge of all the ‘Links’ is passed down. I can't reference anything that states every new incarnation of Link gains the past version's combat experience and if DEATH BATTLE can't either and they truly believe Link keeps past knowledge of other incarnations this may be a relevant complaint, though once again I believe this is at least partially a composite Link they were using.
My next point is less grounded, but it can be argued that there is a lot of implied evidence that suggests Link gains past incarnation’s knowledge. Most Links learn sword-play, how to effectively wield items, and just about anything they put their mind to at much quicker than normal rates, to the point that Wind Waker Link was able to accomplish feats in less than a year of travelling that his teacher had dedicated his entire life to (gathering 10 Knight's Chrests, mastering the Great Spin attack). And don’t forget that DEATH BATTLE gave Zelda the knowledge/experience of both Shiek and Tetra, two Zeldas from different timelines.
The EXACT same thing can be said about Cloud or any video game character where the player is given some control over their actions.
I'm going to quote Final Fantasy Wiki when I say this, "Cloud's fighting style is called Buster Basher. He specializes in slow, powerful melee attacks that do heavy damage and knock the opponent across arenas."
No part of that says, 'strategic war expert' to me, in fact, a character who specializes in slow but powerful strikes backs up Death Battle's point that Cloud's style is too predictable. If Cloud is a 'strategic genius' he has a tough time showing it. I've seen Advent Children, played FF VII, Crisis Core, and the Dissidia games and have found him to rely mostly on overwhelming force rather than cunning just like DEATH BATTLE said.
I have nothing to say about your complaints over how the two's abilities are portrayed in the full fight other than, 'rule of cool' and what DEATH BATTLE has already said and will probably say again after they see the responses to this fight. The actual DEATH BATTLES are NOT 100% accurate simulations of how the fight would go down and anyone hoping to counter-argue the verdict to a match should stick to analyzing the hell out of the beginning segments of DEATH BATTLES where they discuss the characters' weapons, armors, and abilities. I really cannot stress this point anymore!
Nobody cares if you can prove Peach threw her turnips .5221 seconds faster than she normally can in her fight against Zelda (No, there seriously was someone complaining about that). Pointing out stuff DEATH BATTLE missed or things that are statistically incorrect in their analysis, THAT people will care about...Actually, screw it I’m going to comment on one of your gripes with the fight.
It can be assumed Cloud thought the ice arrow Link shot was another standard arrow and was attempting to block it only for it to encoat him in ice on contact. I don’t really see how it matters, even if DEATH BATTLES were 100% accurate to their results Cloud broke through the ice with ease and the whole scenario was relatively inconsequential to the fight.
DEATH BATTLE mentions Mako harms the planet and a search of Final Fantasy wiki shows that highly processed Mako energy (read 'Mako Poisoning) is dangerous to humans and contains dead souls/memories constantly flowing through it. Any fuel source that is deadly to the living, the environment, is composed of dead souls, and is emitted from something that wants to destroy the planet I think can fairly be called 'evil material' meaning an argument can be made that Link's sword would be effective against Cloud’s Jenova cell fueled body. I personally think it's a moot point, even if the Master Sword wasn't 'extra effective' against Cloud's Mako energy I don’t think it would have been enough for Cloud to have won.
There is a such thing as heroic characters who use weapons of evil forge. The Master Sword is designed to repel evil materials, how morally right the person who is wielding or in Cloud’s case infused with the evil material doesn't matter. Nobody will argue that Dante from Devil May Cry is generally good on a moral level, but a lot of his weapons are of demonic forge and I think could logically be called 'evil material' and would therefore be vulnerable to weapons designed to ‘repel evil’.
I know it’s difficult to determine what sort of final blow Link made at the end thanks to the giant flash before it, but I’m pretty sure it was a slash. Other than that I’ll say 'Rule of cool' and while I have no doubt Cloud's super-human resilience would make him put up a good fight, if there is one thing NOBODY can deny when it comes to this match-up it's that Link has the superior defenses. Cloud may be able to take a lot of stab wounds, but even he has to go down eventually.
That’s it in regards to this comment. I don't exactly think the complaints TWOxACROSS makes are amazing, but it's a very good comment, it did bring up questions worth answering and was a hell of a lot more level-headed than most of the stuff I subjected myself to. (End of LousyTactician's response)
So, what about a response that is generally in favor of the fight? Here’s one. We think it doesn’t get too disrespectful and doesn’t really go beyond anything that we would say as far as offensiveness goes. And to be fair, yes, we at the ODBFB do agree with the result of the fight. But, that being said, we need to explain why we think that. And we start by using this comment.
And yeah we know this seems like it is more directed towards the critics rather than the actual fight, but trust me, it was hard finding a comment that praised on the fight alone that got anywhere beyond, “THIS WAS AWESOME!” So aside, from that, I am sure you understand this selection.
So let’s take a look...
Now, we didn’t get a chance to reply to this one directly, so we will respond to this in one sitting. I think we can agree that Cloud in this given scenario is restricted to certain things that Link is not, which we will get into in a little bit, but yes it can make it seem unfair. But that’s just how the characters are represented in their games. And we don’t think anyone would have been pleased if they decided to ignore all the elements of each character and the games in which they are featured. That just makes it seem more fair than it really is. Nuff said. A well done and wise statement DragonGenesis!
The One Comment Everyone Can Agree On
This is just the beginning of what will be a long held tradition here on our response blog.
Sometimes you come across that one perfect statement...One that transcends the ideas and beliefs that people of different values and culture share... One that penetrates the heart and soul of every being in the universe...A statement that is pure and honest in every sense of the word... A statement that...Well, just read it.
Never before, have I ever heard so much cleverness and wisdom summed up in a comment so small and concise! We tip your hat off to you kind sir.
The New Animation
As if there wasn’t enough to talk about with this new match, this was also the first DEATH BATTLE with 3D animation. And with it opinions have gone rampant. Some quite like the new animation.
And others didn’t care for it.
Lousy: If you want my honest opinion, I loved the 3D animation! Yes it had its stiff moments and I found the 2D animations done by Mr. Lange to be better, but it’s still preferred over the ‘Pre-Mr. Lange’ DEATH BATTLE animations. Aside from that 3D felt like a more suitable format seeing as how both fighters are most well known for their 3D games and I have no doubt if DEATH BATTLE continues doing 3D fights they will improve the animation over time the same way the 2D animation did. I don’t think there should be 3D fights all the time, but anybody who follows Mr. Lange’s feed knows that they never intended for 3D to completely take over, they only plan to use it when necessary and I think that’s the best route to go. If you want to give your own thoughts on the 3D animation don’t just comment about it here or in the videos. Go to the source, flood Mr. Lange’s feed with praise/criticism, I’m sure he won’t mind!
Samuraispartan7000: I agree that the 3-D works best in the right fight. In this case it’s to the benefit of both characters as the original sprites of Link aren’t really DEATH BATTLE material, and Cloud is known for his distinctively 3-D look. People talk about blank expressions and stiffness, but since when were those problems exclusive to 3-D? It’s never going to be perfect people. Overall, I think it’s good to have something new, and can’t think of a better fight to introduce this format on with the exception of Master Chief vs. Doomguy. It also raises the possibility that more fights can be produced in more ways. Hell, we might end up with a live action DEATH BATTLE directed by Ed Boon! At least I can keep hoping for it anyways...
AkumaTh: 3D Animation or 2D Sprites have their benefits and weaknesses. Using 3D Models and the program used in this match, match ups like Lara Vs Nathan could happen a lot faster because you don’t have to worry about someone making a fully animatable sheet for them or finding a Mobile Game that made them in 2D. And there has been a lot of match requests of battles without sprites. On the other hand, 3D doesn’t look as fast or smooth as 2D Spriting does (yet. This is, as we can only assume, is his first attempt at this. Give him time and I bet you would want him to stick with 3D). But Like Samurai, the preference should be based on the characters.
psb123: I have to agree with the rest of the team in that the type of animation they should use depends on the fight. While it could use improvement I have to say that the 3D animation was quite impressive in Link vs. Cloud. In general, I prefer sprite animation, but there are plenty of fights that just work better with 3D. The problem with sprites is that you have to draw EVERY single frame of animation while with 3D, you don’t have to do that. Some fights however, such as all the most wanted fights of The Official DEATH BATTLE Fan Blog, work better with sprites.
Spider-Man vs. ???? (*Cough* Batman *Cough*)
We know we can’t make this response blog without at least giving this a passing mention. After the newest DEATH BATTLE concluded Spider-Man was announced as one of the new fighters and EVERYBODY is saying Batman is the mystery opponent. Is there any way to prove that? Yes there is.
Ben tweeted a while back on the 19th of May when he expressed an interest in Spider-Man vs. Batman when he posted it as his g1 DEATH BATTLE suggestion of the day. Here is the actual picture of it here.
Like always this is only speculation, but the time seems too perfect for Spider-Man’s opponent to be anyone, but Batman. The newest Spider-Man film was released weeks ago, The Dark Knight Rises is only a few days away, and while neither Marvel nor DC have a ‘definitive’ mascot, when it comes to both companies’ most successful properties they are undoubtedly Spider-Man and Batman.
But does that mean the fight would be fair? Many say that a fight between these two heroes would be one-sided in Spider-Man’s favor (Cracked seems to disagree with us though) and while reaching a true conclusion would demand more research out of us, at the moment we agree. Anybody interested in why we think this just read Kaibaman’s recent blog it does a good job narrowing down Spider-Man’s key abilities and several comments elaborate on Batman’s chances.
You should really check it out. But... We are going to have to save any actual predictions about this upcoming fight for our next prediction blog. I know it’s a bitch to wait, but just get ready for a Spider-Man vs. Batman Prediction Blog to come soon. We’d be damned if it’s anyone other than Batman. On second thought, we'll be goddamn batman damned!
What We Should Walk Away With From Cloud vs. Link
We have reviewed the comments, we have talked about the 3-D, the fight and everything, so what else could there possibly be to talk about? There’s A LOT actually. Here are just a few of the things that this fight in particular demonstrates that we think need to be addressed. This is going to be one long ride, so sit back, and relax.
Don’t get too relaxed though... We would hate for you all to fall asleep through all of this AMAZING writing!
The Unwritten Rules of DEATH BATTLE
Like most fights have done in the past, Cloud vs. Link undeniably raises several questions regarding just how exactly DEATH BATTLE works. First off, DEATH BATTLE at best is only loosely regulated by rules that it will make exceptions to when it wants and when it says it will.
Samurai: Personally, I don’t think any of us have a problem with that as long as the rules they establish for themselves are followed through on and makes the fight more interesting and entertaining while reasonably fair. Despite this though, there are rules which they have clearly written for all fights and there are about one or two traits that have been specifically induced in every single episode of DEATH BATTLE. Here are the official rules they have stated at the end of several DEATH BATTLEs and the ones they adhered to in the Cloud vs. Link fight.
Rules of DEATH BATTLE
-Combatants possess knowledge of each other only if it is canon to each fighter’s universe
-The battle must end in a death. For fairness, any personality restraints from killing are removed.
-All other character traits, tactics, and attributes are not removed and are attempted to be represented faithfully.
It’s definitely not the rule book level shit that a lot of people would like, but seriously guys... Keep in mind they have to make this show entertaining and not some heartless, military run operation, where people completely forget the purpose of what they're doing just to make it efficient.
With that said, it’s time to really dig deep into two other rules that while, not written, have played a crucial role in every fight. Here are the two unwritten rules that we have deduced from watching this show.
The Unwritten Rules of DEATH BATTLE
-Unless mentioned otherwise, all characters represented are done so individually and are not allowed any outside help from any other being that is capable of acting independently or is capable of attacking on its own.
- While such attributes may be taken into account during the process of choosing a winner, no healing items can be used in the visual portrayal if too expansive. Such attributes for both characters are difficult to combine in one setting and can make the fight needlessly complicated.
The only account where DEATH BATTLE chose to ignore the “No Outside Help Rule” was the fight between Dr. Wily and Dr. Eggman. And that was simply because all of the fans wanted the fight to include the robots and was pitched as being a desirable fight because of that.
Not, much of a violation if it can even be called that. While it was never mentioned in the written rules it was directly stated in one instance during the Vegeta vs. Shadow fight where Ben as Wiz said they wouldn’t allow Vegeta’s Super Saiyan Level Four because he required outside help to reach such power, which is not allowed in DEATH BATTLE. The only other instance where this rule gets a little hazy is in the Bomberman vs. Dig Dug fight where Bomberman is permitted access to his kangaroo steeds.
From that, we can only assume that living beings that are ONLY used for mobility are permitted. Aside from that, nothing else. Though we could be wrong on this, the first time DEATH BATTLE specifically states no outside help is allowed is again, in the Vegeta VS. Shadow episode that came out right after Bomberman VS. Dig Dug. They may have mentioned this new rule specifically for future episodes after they realized how unfair of an advantage a future contender could get if he/she/it had a more powerful steed...Or it could have just been a joke about how Vegeta needs his wife’s help to achieve Super Saiyan 4 status. Maybe Wiz and Boomstick have completely different rules set up when it comes to outside help...Fuck if we know.
All we are saying is that in MOST scenarios, unless stated otherwise, outside help is not allowed.
As for the second unwritten rule, the only instances that even come close to someone using healing powers and or items occurred in the Akuma vs. Shang Tsung battle and the more obvious usage of heart power in the Zelda vs. Peach fight. In the Akuma vs. Shang Tsung, Tsung used his powers to drain Akuma’s stamina to increase his own.
A factor whose importance wouldn’t even be relevant if it had not been for the health bars that could be seen on top. Since that fight, no other duel has ever used the health bar since. And without the health bars, trying to throw in the idea of health and stamina increasing items is usually too confusing.
While I think it’s taken into account when they choose a winner, as our own predictions rested heavily on how the healing items worked with things like Phoenix Down and Nayru’s Love in all, we personally think it’s safe to say they are audited from the actual fight because of the amount of problems that could pop up from trying to compare different health systems.
While we certainly aren’t trying to petition for a mention of these rules, we are going to take them into account when making any more prediction blogs or any time we are talking about DEATH BATTLE.
The Problem with RPG Characters
AkumaTh: RPG characters are one of the most popular characters to pick from. You have the strong and silent Crono, the Great Treasure Hunter Locke, the Loveable but Idiotic Fighter from Final Fantasy 1 and many, MANY more. And the great thing about RPGs is that you can make them act the way you want them to. But to put them in Death Battle, that can not translate well.
Death Battle is about pitting characters against each other. Key word: Characters. That means to properly represent them, they would have to figure out how the character would have act in the situation. Because like you or me, I bet the guys at Screwattack optimize Cloud and the others to suit their needs to complete their game. But the question is, would that be how the character would act if given the chance.
Taken an example of my own playing experiences, in Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: your partner, whoever you pick from the list given to you, is a little bit of a coward when you read the story. But because of the way I set him up, he's the first to attack when an enemy appears and his play style doesn't match what the story is telling me.
Now let’s look at Cloud under this same light. People who play with him prefer to use Magic over his Physical attacks. Who can blame them, since Magic does more damage in certain cases than a straight attack. But the question is would that be a legit strategy Cloud himself would use. And the answer is no, he would not. There have been many incidences where he had access to Magic but for one reason or another decided not to use it.
Biggest example, Aerith's Death. He had the various healing items and magics at the time but did not use them. Someone told me because it would not work. The problem with that is the only way to know that would be to try it. And the only case I've found of its failure was Final Fantasy V.
Galuf, after a valiant effort, was dying. Despite using their best recovery items and spells on him, he still died. Cloud, after seeing her get stabbed, doesn't even make the attempt to use said stuff. One minute could have been added with Cloud using said abilities and failing, but instead he just stays there listening to Sephiroth. That could have added so much to the relationship between the two (which would conflict with those who worked to get Cloud to date Tifa, Yuffie or Barret instead).
Even the Final Battle between Cloud and Sephiroth confirms this. Sephiroth only needs to be attacked once to lose. And the options given to you, the only one available is attack (Limit Break, but still). Even if you leave him alone you immediately counter attack. And these two pieces of evidence can be found in the original Final Fantasy 7.
As for Link, since there are little to no action cutscenes in the Zelda series, gameplay is all we get. But because it is more focused on puzzle solving we can see Link being dependant on figuring out how to beat something instead of muscling through everything (which is why I don’t get far when I play Zelda).
As much as you would want Cloud to be at his best, the end of the day this is a battle of characters. If it wasn't, then it would be a battle of items, where Link nor Cloud would be a factor. Cloud lost because Death Battle saw how he was portrayed outside game play, where he was more straightforward and dependent on his physical abilities and skills. Something Link is a perfect counter to.
You don't want Death Battle to turn into Deadliest Warrior now, do you? (End of AkumaTH's comments)
The Cumulative Canon Scenario VS. Single Canon Scenario.
When considering how people reacted to the result of this DEATH BATTLE and considering how people reacted to the result of our own prediction, there seems to be one clear issue that people are taking up arguments with.
The one clear issue being the idea that Cloud is not given the fair amount of access to his items and abilities he deserves in comparison to Link. They mostly argue that Ben and Chad “nerfed” Cloud by denying him access to his most powerful weapons that would have made the biggest difference in the fight while Link arguably did. While this is not in entirely accurate, as Link was probably even more nerfed than Cloud, I can see where this problem stems. And it’s not a question of “Who got the better stuff” but “Who got the more convenient timeline.”
Think about this for one moment. Unless stated specifically, DEATH BATTLE represents a character’s abilities and items featured throughout the swath of their established existence whether it is canon or not. This means that even though Link has several different incarnations, his powers are still represented in a composite form in which established lore is practically unaffected by negative repercussions that occur in the mechanically separate stories.
In this, logical restraints are thrown out the window just to make the composite work. So say, Link lost all of his stuff in the story of one game, but maintained them all in the other. When you make a combination of these characters, a scenario that is in and of itself illogical, you wind up with a character whose possession of powers makes just as little sense. And in the attempt to make it seem fair, we regrant this character all of the powers he lost in one story. And this is done so it feels like he is given the fairest chances of winning as the composite character (a composite) in question is an impossible scenario anyways.
But when you deal with a character such as Cloud, you run into a completely different problem. Unlike Link, Cloud suffers because he is subject to a much more continuous and connected storyline. Meaning, the Cloud in one game is the same Cloud in another game. If Cloud loses his arm in one game (I know that’s random...) he won’t have an arm in the next. This particular problem with his representation is especially embodied by how his materia usage changed through the games, which was arguably a key factor in this fight and in our own prediction.
With this, things that happen to him have farther reaching effects as he is only one person and one incarnation, and does not have the luxury of having another counterpart who erases his established weaknesses.
That’s the main problem with fights like this. In most scenarios, but not all, characters who are composites of different incarnations and or canons stand a much better chance of winning than characters who are a part of one continuous canon. Take the Thor vs. Raiden fight for example. Thor has separate comics, T.V shows, movies, and books to go off of, while Raiden only possesses his Mortal Kombat video game series to really go off of(Unless you REALLY want to take into consideration how pussified he was in those horrible movies...).
(LousyTactician: HEY! I like the first Mortal Kombat movie And Christopher Lambert is awesome...End of Lousy's guilty pleasure rant)
Same problem here. Link has more games, more history, and much less rigid canon to go utilize.
Even though there is some question as to whether or not Link operates in a single canon, another debate in and of itself, it is pretty hard to challenge the fact that LoZ timeline act as mechanically and conically separate stories that behave much more like different takes on the exact same ideas.
And while the existence of such a precedent might seem like an atrocity that needs to be addressed immediately, just consider the problems you would have with alternative solutions.
In essence, DEATH BATTLE is supposed to represent the ALL the powers of a character as they appear in ALL forms of their respected media. That means, in order to do away with the incarnation problem, you would have to reduce the powers and abilities of a character to ONE iteration of that character’s media, albeit, a single movie, a single game, a single comic book series and so on. This in turn, dismisses everything else a character has outside a single iteration while another character who may have a continuous canon possesses much more advantages to choose from because his single continuous storyline has more content as a whole.
In this scenario, Link would have to use the abilities he possesses in ONE game while Cloud would have his entire franchise to depend on, in which case Link would have his ass handed to him in less than a microsecond. Does that sound like a fairer scenario to you? To us, it isn’t, because at least in that scenario the characters are much more evenly matched despite the outcome changing completely as a result of it.
For argument’s sake, I am just going to give these two scenarios names so they are easier to talk about. It’s what we like to call the Cumulative Canon Scenario vs. Single Canon Scenario.
If you think representing a character comes down to depicting him or her as he or she appears in ALL of his or her games, movies, and texts despite the illogical melding of his or her separate canons is fair, while forcing single canon characters to withstand the negative repercussions of their own storylines, then you believe in the Cumulative Canon Scenario.
If you think representing a character fairly comes to narrowing down his or her canons to a single story despite discrediting everything else he or she possesses due to the lack of cohesion, then you believe in the Single Canon Scenario. If you do believe in Single Canon Scenario and ever try to recommend a fight for a multi-canon character we can only advise that you specify which incarnation of that character you plan to use, lest you want to be bombarded with an uncountable number of, “But this incarnation can do this” comments. After all a DEATH BATTLE that had the Four Swords incarnation Link would be significantly different than one with the Majora’s Mask incarnation.
So far, and unless they decide to change it for whatever reason, DEATH BATTLE has been consistently driven by the Cumulative Canon Scenario as evidenced in fights like Mario vs. Sonic and Thor vs. Raiden where they took established lore from comics, movies, shows, and occasionally separate non canon games like SSB. The only fights that act as an exceptions to this general rule would be the fight between Starscream and Rainbow Dash and Rogue vs. Wonder Woman where their specific generational iterations were named in the beginning of the fights. Other than those exceptions, DEATH BATTLE almost always utilizes the Cumulative Canon Scenario.
So here is the big question. Should DEATH BATTLE use the Cumulative Canon Scenario or the Single Canon Scenario? In all honesty, we think it’s both. It does not really come down to how fair it is simply because either scenario does have its own problems as far as fairness is concerned. No matter what, there is always going to be things considered “unfair” either way.
The only method through which to obtain the fairest outcome possible is deciding which scenario to utilize based on how close a fight is in the provided situation. As we stated earlier, doing a Single Canon Scenario in this fight would have been an absolute crime as just one single Link from any single game could stand little to no chance against Cloud as he has a whole series of games to work from.
In this scenario, we feel that the fight is much, much, more close. And even though it was at Cloud’s expense, you can’t criticize it for that. I highly doubt Ben and Chad went into this saying, “Oh, if we do it this way Link loses... Link is my favorite character ever he can’t lose! I KNOW! Why don’t we set it up this way so he wins!”
In short, the fight scenario is set up in a way that benefits Link, however, it is the only scenario that provides each combatant the best chance possible in the fairest way possible. There is always going to be a death in DEATH BATTLE and it just so happened that in this particular route the staff chose, Cloud came up short.
What really matters here is just setting up ideals and following them through. I could understand major complaints being warranted if the fight established it was going to follow a certain set of rules only to take a 180 degree turn on them and completely break all of its promises in the process. This fight just isn’t one of them. They said no outside help, there was no outside help. They said they would only use the items they believed that the characters would feel most comfortable using, and they wielded the weapons they are most commonly shown using. Just the sheer fact that they even wrote down the scenario word for word in the beginning of this fight shows how serious they were about sticking to what it was supposed to be.
So, you might hate the rules, you might think the rules hurt a character’s chances of winning rather unfairly, but are they really that ungrounded? It’s not like there is a rule that says, “All characters featured in the LoZ series automatically wins.” That wouldn’t be fair in any scenario. And I hate to reference the real world we try to escape everyday, but seriously people. There are rules and laws out there that violate every single thing that you believe to be fair. In which case, if you don’t like those rules, you move on somewhere else.
And that is what needs to be said here. If you don’t like the rules, then move on. Perhaps you can start your own show about pop icons that go head to head in a duel to the death. Maybe you can fix every single wrong that you believe DEATH BATTLE committed. And maybe, just maybe, you can obtain a certain level of appreciation for DEATH BATTLE because you can finally understand all the hard work that goes into it.
Just remember that even though you might not always agree with what DEATH BATTLE does, that does not mean you have a right to criticize everything about in an unnecessarily harsh tone that completely discredits all the passionate work that went into creating it for YOU. That’s who they are making it for people. YOU!!! And somehow I get the feeling that taking a giant sized, angry fanboy induced, crap on the show just because you don’t agree with the conclusions it draws does not make Ben or Chad very inclined to make anymore for YOU.
In short, just be respectable. It’s not that hard. You are going to get mad sometimes but just be the better person and know that others aren’t making it their mission to piss you off. That’s all.
Alright, let us just confirm what you have probably suspected since the beginning of this article. Are we over thinking this a bit? Yes. Are we ashamed? No.
What did you expect? By the end of the day, we’re all just a bunch of nerds and angry fanboys spending huge amounts of time talking about something that probably won’t have any kind of significant impact on our immediate lives and something we will probably forget by next week. We just have this tendency to ANALYZE things. It’s just who we are.
In fact, that's one of the reasons we made this blog. So we can spend several cherished hours talking about one of our most cherished shows. Like many wise people who have already pointed this out, some can get so caught up in the controversy of a DEATH BATTLE that we forget the most important thing of all. To have fun.
Even though you might hate them when they kill your favorite character, you have to respect the fact that DEATH BATTLE is willing to give us something that other people don’t have the guts to do. Give a definitive answer to, ‘Who would win in a fight?’ and give it without turning the whole thing into a giant competition of which series gets the most fan-wank.
In the end, we are all just making this a lot more complicated than it really needs to be. But why do we do this? Because we care. Ironically, there is no better way to demonstrate your passion about something than to mercilessly rip it apart just because you didn’t think it delivered on its original precedent. This passion is further demonstrated in those who defend what they love when they feel others aren’t taking into account all the hard work that goes into making the show enjoyable for others.
So again, are we blowing things out of proportion? Yeah. But are we wasting our time? We don’t think so. How is becoming centrally involved with something you love a waste of time? And that’s what we think is most important here. Just loving this show for what it is, speaking out against it when you think it’s committed a wrong, coming to its defense when it needs it, but most importantly of all, just having fun with the whole experience. The show, the reception, the debates, everything. Just have some damn fun with it!
Joining The Official DEATH BATTLE Fan Blog
Before we wrap this up, we want to announce that we're looking for new blood to join The Official DEATH BATTLE Fan Blog. If you've actually taken the time to read through this entire blog you have already proven you have some commitment and are eligible to becoming a member. But what anybody looking to join us should do is blog about DEATH BATTLE and blog about it well. The blogs in question don't necessarily need to be wishlists they can be your own personal predictions for a fight that hasn't happened yet, an analysis of the show's rules, whatever. Just make sure it isn't lazy or half-assed, there's a reason g1 Alpha Unit has a...Dismay towards the more poorly made DEATH BATTLE blogs. prove that yours aren't like that and chances are we'll take interest in it, ask you to join, and maybe even spotlight your stuff.
I’m not sure if this information might help clear things up when it comes to Status Effects on Link. Link has already shown resistance to status effects like those caused by the Twilight Realm in Twilight Princess. The Triforce marking on Link’s hand transformed him into a wolf because it was foretold by prophecy while Zelda’s marking left her retain her human form. We know these markings are sent as a sign showing that they are favored by the gods and that they wield a piece of the Triforce. Interesting to note that they don’t have to possess a fragment of the Triforce for the markings to show or work as seen in Zelda II when it shown up on Link without him holding any of the Triforce pieces. So immunity to status effects (or some) seem to be a blessing by the gods though to what extent is still unclear.
We can deduce that some effects like Slow and Stop can also be countered by the Mirror Shield, Reflect Spell, Ocarina of Time, Harp of Ages, help from Ciela, and other such options.
“Reflect - Reflects most magic used against them at caster or to the opposing battle party.” — Final Fantasy Wikia
Some effects cannot be reflected by spells but it is unclear if they can be reflected by items like the Mirror Shield. Other status effects can raise a few questions but here is the best I can figure out. Poison, Blind, Confuse, Curse, etc., all have a probability of missing their intended target. They are also very unlikely to aid in a boss battle. Try poisoning Sephiroth and what do you get?...no results. And this is Sephiroth a humanoid being like Link. One possessing Jenova cells the other blessed by the gods.
“The Final Fantasy series, like most RPGs, has status effects, or conditions which affect a character's attributes or actions, for better or for worse.”
“In Final Fantasy XIII and Final Fantasy XIII-2, status ailments are classified into three categories: Debuff which hinders target's stats (Debrave, Deprotect, Deshell, Imperil, Poison, and Dispel), Debilitation which hinders target's ability to act (Slow, Fog, Pain, Curse, Daze), and None which accuracy to hit can't be modified by passive abilities (instant death).”
“Final Fantasy VII - Poison periodically inflicts Poison-elemental physical damage upon the afflicted unit and does not remain after battle. It can be cured using an Antidote and Remedy items, Poisona and ESUNA spells and White Wind and Angel Whisper Enemy Skills, as well as Aeris's status healing Limit Breaks.”
So we see that status effects can be cured by a variety of different ways. But if they were to have an effect on Link I think I found something that can cure all (or most) status effects. The SONG OF HEALING.
"This is a melody that HEALS EVIL MAGIC and troubled spirits, turning them into masks." — Happy Mask Salesman (Majora's Mask)
“Esuna, also known as HEAL, Remedy, and Clear, is a recurring spell in the Final Fantasy series. When cast on a character, it will remove most abnormal status ailments.”
This song heals Darmani’s spirit by yielding a mask that Link can wear to protect the Gorons. Then the song heals Mikau by granting Link his power in order to help save the Zora eggs from the pirates. But the most interesting status effect healing goes to Pamela’s Father who received a STATUS EFFECT and was saved by the Song of HEALING. The HEAL Spell has different effects through Final Fantasy games but include raising depleted life points and REMOVING STATUS EFFECTS. Seeing how the song can be used to both heal wounds and status effects, it is most likely a solution to any (or most) status effects Link were to undergo. Possibly even changing the status effect into a Mask as it did with Pamela’s Father. This might clear up some confusion about status effects on Link.
Here is an example of Link killing a boss with a one hit blow.
I’m not sure if this helps but here is an example of Link killing a boss with a one hit blow.
I was about to reply to another few ranting replies how I found it baseless to argue tirelessly against a show that is provided for our own entertainment, with a lot of time put into it, and ultimately, free for everyone to enjoy.
I wish to thank you for this long but worthy blog, and might even start writing about DeathBattle myself. Again, thank you for this peace of well-thought mind on one of ScrewAttack's grand shows!
I can't believe some people take it THIS serious. It's just a fun web series.
Cloud’s durability is wekened in this battle because of his Jenova cells.
"Jenova serves as one if the primary antagonist in Final Fantasy VII and experiments on its cells have produced many other antagonists as well, including Sephiroth."
"It's called the calamity from the skies"
"Jenova emerged from the crater and approached the Cetra, using it's mimic abilities to destroy them..."
"Jenova would then take on the form of a fallen Certa, and get close enough to destroy their loved ones."
"Humans treated with Jenova cells proved to be able super-soldiers, which lead to the SOLDIER to be injected with Jenova cells."
"Shinra used Cloud and Zack as part of Professor Hojo's newest experiment to test his Jenova Reunion Theory."
"Being controlled, Cloud gives Sephiroth the Black Materia."
"This infection with Jenova cells manifested in the plague Geostigma."
So this should clear up some of the doubts we are all having. Jenova cells are evil. Zack and Cloud were implanted with them. Those cells have caused Cloud to help Sephiroth.
"Kadej destroys the flowerbed and released an outflow of seemingly Lifestream-infused water which cures Cloud's Geostigma."
This means that Aerith cured him of his sickness but did NOT remove Cloud's source of power the Jenova Cells. This is one of the main reasons Cloud (and Sephiroth) would lose against Link. The Master Sword is known as the Sword of Evil's Bane.
“It was then given the power to repel evil by the goddess Hylia herself”
The Master Sword is especially strong against evil. This fight is 100% accurate. Cloud is strong but the Master Sword would be stronger than any attack Sephiroth unleashes because his attacks are also filed by Jenova cells. So Link's sword would cause more damage than Sephiroth.
While Cloud prefers to use the Buster Sword.
“Cloud wields a variety of weapons throughout his appearances. His most iconic weapon is the Buster Sword, a massive two-handed broadsword that he wields in Final Fantasy VII and most of his spin-off appearances.”
Firaga and Thundraga decrease Cloud’s attack power. Most fans agreed that Cloud would use Thundraga because it attacks at the speed of light and as many fans have agreed, “Speed beats all”. Not knowing that lightening actually strengthens that Master Sword’s Skyward Strike. So Cloud was getting weaker and weaker while Link was getting stronger from Cloud’s attacks.
Link is also a master tactician. This battle was similar to the Leonardo vs Zitz fight where Leo outsmarted Zitz and the Kratos vs Spawn fight where Krato’s sins (his ashes) made Spawn even stronger.
yeah, but his durability should've been portrayed since we've seen Cloud get stabbed multiple times and as stated by Jathan, he survived a fall when explosions happen in FF7. He should've survived that slash and slugged it off as it's just one slash. And besides he's got a chastity belt to protect him from getting too much damage. And even with Link's gizmos, Cloud still has the edge of mobility and I guess the reason Link won is because of his armor. Which I questioned here.
Cloud lost because he was too predictable. Always using the straight forward approach.
Link can analyze an enemie's movements even in the air and while he is attacked. His ability to keep track of an enemy is presented as the Z-Target. Omnislash can't break Link's analytical skills. Plus I already posed a link showing how Link is able to fight at hyper speed.
From a purely technical standpoint, you're absolutely right. However, if there are places for Batman to utilize his stealth to aggravate Spiderman then he could possibly get Spidey to make a spontaneous action that would leave him open. Just a theory, even saying that Batman is Spiderman's opponent is speculation.
When I said 'He never analyzed Spiderman' I meant analyze his key weaknesses. A lot can be learned from the psychological profile of a fighter, but I don't think knowing Spiderman is, "Too spontaneous and cocky at times" is enough to give Batman a significant strategic edge. If I were to look at an EXTREMELY hypothetical situation, if Batman had, say, designed a special gas that could instantly dematerialize Spiderman's web from his analysis of the character that would be a situation where his pre-existing knowledge of Spiderman would give him an edge.
I honestly have no idea how many people research the fights, but I always assumed it was just Ben and Chad (Mr. Lange might have just proven me wrong in the comments below me though).
can you remake the last part of the battle where we ACTUALLY see Link do the ending blow? I'm still not convinced he died that way as we see cloud fell lifelessly and then the camera spans to Link walking away. There's no way Link would do it unless after Cloud fell to his doom Link stabs him in the back onscreen.
PS: just a suggestion on how to portray the "final blow" Link did while that flash happened as many people aren't convinced to that final blow thingy.
just how many people actually reasearch for the Death Battle? Is it just Ben or are there other people?
Don't worry, guys. I respect whatever the outcome of any battle. Just a little pissed off my fave character lost.
But remember he's being attacked while in the air with Omnislash. So he cannot have enough time to react to Cloud's Final Blow. I think the reason Link won is because of his hard-ass armor.
Oh well, there's no use arguing with this. They already said that they used the "cumulative canon scenario" where if one has multiple appearances, one should too.
What's done is done.
I still feel Cloud is nerfed much ('nuff said).
Link was able to fight while in the air in several occasions. Many people don't even bother looking into all his games because the find them to kiddish not knowing they are missing out on some major information of Link's arson and abilities.
There were multiple cross-overs, there was even one where Batman and Spiderman worked side-by-side and Batman was analyzing him the whole time. From what I can remember he said that Spidey had real potential to change the world but that he was too spontaneous and cocky at times. Then again Batman probably thinks that about a lot of people.
I honestly don't know but I do own the only two crossover comic books with Batman and Spawn.