The Game OverThinker - Episode 65 "Open The Vault!"
The OverThinker asks the industry to do right by the classics. PLUS! A shocking new twist is revealed!
» Show: The Game OverThinker
quick addition here, the site NESbox and SNESbox are emulators for old games, now I know roms are not always 100% accurate or technically legal, but I'd rather the internet do its part keeping these old games around rather then no one.
considering I own that whole set up NES, TV, and Dragon quest (1-3) I'm set on that, but they are definitely going to run out in the future. I even have some great old computer games I want to run again. GoG.com helps a lot with those I can get games like RCT2 again and my life will disappear for another two years.
I may be loosely paraphrasing John Locke but I will do it anyway. Property rights and liberties should be based on the use of liberties by the individuals within them. No state or outside body can interfere on the rights of the property by the owners if their use of the property does not cause harm for anyone by their use.
In the example of GameOverthinker, the property is video games. The owners are the gamers. The state in this case is Nintendo. Nintendo can not and should not attempt to prevent 'piracy,' if the games are not being used by Nintendo or causing harm to Nintendo's profits. I strongly believe that this one of the very few times that piracy should exist. When Nintendo can not sell you the game then digitally copying it may be the only answer.
They should just allow people to distribute their old games for free after they are no longer part of their business model. There is no way that old NES games are a part of there long-term revenue plans unless they are in the form of virtual console sales and that is just peanuts. They should finally do something for the fans that shows they care about them a little.
Sucks there's no rating system anymore. There's no way for Bob to know how much people hate his "story" now.
Um, I can get a lot of the vaulted games legally through the playstation network. I've just played through Ikari Warriors right now.
Also, there really is not a lot of incentive for Nintendo to release the old games because they tried it back in 2002 with its classics line and it failed miserably back then.
Nice episode. I like how you kept showing Laser Ghost, a game which most of the g1s probably never heard of.
Unfortunately, it's too late & many games have already been lost and nothing could have been done about it. The games I'm talking about are unreleased prototypes. As a person who has been deeply involved with MAME by buying & loaning arcade boards for rom dumping, I know all too well about the scenario. There have been a ton of unreleased arcade prototypes that my former website that is since gone because the site that hosted it disappeared documented. And the ones that I documented are only a fraction of those that were made. What I'm talking about is the companies merely following tax laws when they created games that were never released & instead canceled. In order for companies to write off the expenses associated with unreleased/canceled prototypes, the law required them to destroy all copies of such games to prevent them from being sold after the companies receive deductions from those write-offs.
Luckily quite a few of these games were not entirely destroyed and ended up getting into the hands of people who cared enough about them to dump their roms & have them preserved. Examples of these games include Tattoo Assassins (Data East), Mello Yello Presents: Q*bert (Gottlieb), Cloud 9 (Atari), Ghostlop (Data East), Faster, Harder, More Challenging Q*bert (Mylstar), Video Vince and the Game Factory (Mylstar), Qwak (Atari), Road Riot's Revenge (Atari), Lemmings (Data East), and some others. But for every one of these, there are dozens that have either been destroyed & lost forever or are possibly sitting in a collector's stash being horded or prevented from being preserved. PCBs are known to experience bit-rot, which screws the games up, so if they're not preserved before then, it's too late.
But it's worse than even that. Think back to the video game crash of 1983. How many games do you think were probably made in 1983-1984 especially that were scrapped as a result of the crash? Probably hundreds. Other than myself and a handful of others I worked with, I never hear anyone bring up this up. Just because these games are unreleased doesn't mean that they shouldn't be preserved. Because guess what? There are games among these that range from good-great...like Marble Madness 2. The only place you'll find a Marble Madness 2 cabinet is the California Extreme convention where the owner brings it every year & it's among some popular unreleased prototypes that attendees play. Another one you'll see there which has been thankfully dumped & emulated not that long ago is Teeter Torture (Exidy). There are a bunch of other Atari protos that show up there. But besides the ones that have been emulated and the ones that have been privately dumped by their owners but aren't emulated, there are hundreds that haven't been dumped where no known copies have been located. These include some of the games on the following website:
Thankfully from the ones on that site, MAME emulates Video Vince; Gridlee; Tylz; Screw Loose; Insector; Arena (the version known as Wiz Warz); Mello Yello Presents: Q*bert; Faster, Harder, More Challenging Q*bert; and Protector (the version known as Argus). The rest of those games are either gone forever or are currently unpreserved while the ones listed as Unknown aren't even identified (from the description, I'm 99% sure Unknown #2 is Knightmare which has been emulated in MAME). But these are just Gottlieb/Mylstar games and only the ones that the guys working there at the time documented. Who knows if there are more besides the ones listed there. But what about other prototypes like Data East's Quiz Omaeni Pipon Cho! and Air Walkers, Taito's original Metal Soldier Isaac, Parasol Stars (if it even exists) and Cyber Sterra, Sega's Looney Tunes: By A Hare, Coreland's 119, Sunwise's Monkichichi no FuwaFuwa Puzzle, Human's Front Row, Entertainment Sciences' Bouncer, or hundreds of other companies' games? Hell, we're still uncertain if an arcade version of Parasol Stars, *the sequel to Rainbow Islands of all games* exists or if it was simply the TG-16/PC Engine version in a cabinet!!! This is the 3rd Bubble Bobble game we're talking about (4th if you consider Chack'n Pop as the first Bubble Bobble game)!!!
If you're interested in more arcade protos, the Safestuff guy has a website documenting the Atari protos he owns:
Thankfully he's emulation friendly. But the worst thing is, it's not only prototypes that have been lost or are in danger of being lost. There are probably 100's or even 1000's of games that DID GET RELEASED but have not been preserved. The majority of Data East's games on their DECO Cassette hardware haven't been preserved and those are in severe danger of being lost forever because the cassettes/tapes they're on are prone to breakage. Some of these include the sought-after Manhattan, Sengoku Ninja Tai, Banbolin, Burmazon, Skater Gater, The DECO Kid/Flash Boy, Angler Dangler (I bought the Japanese version, Fishing & sent it out for dumping back in 2005 but the guy hasn't done anything with it or the others I sent him yet), Geinohjin Sikaku Siken, Genesis (the dedicated PCB version, Boomer Rang'r/Genesis, is emulated), Hello Gate Ball, Missile Sprinter, Nebula, Oh Zumou, Super Doubles Tennis (dedicated PCB version is emulated), Tokyo MIE Sinryohjyo, Tokyo MIE Sinryohjyo 2, The Tower, and Yellow Cab (the dedicated PCB version Kamikaze Cabbie/Yellow Cab is at least emulated). Besides these cassette games there is also Data East games on dedicated PCBs like Mole Hunter, Nice On, Terranean, Manhattan, Angler Dangler, Hammer Car, Pro Bowling, Tokyo MIE Clinic, and Hang-Zo (it's not even known if Data East makes this game) that are known to exist but have not been tracked down. Who knows how many more there may be. What really pisses me off about the Data East Collection for the Wii, even though I own it anyway, is that none of the unemulated prototypes (which is at least understandable since it's probably not legal for companies to profit off of games that were required to be destroyed), unemulated Cassette games, or unemulated dedicated games are on that collection. It also has emulation flaws, which is another thing that pisses me off because the company that bought Data East should have all the documentation on the complicated hardware of its games. Because of this, I expect perfect emulation. But instead, this either tells me that the hardware documentation was trashed (which is another problem) or the people who made the compilation are lazy & did a half-assed job or even worse just stole the open source work of the MAME developers. I never played it myself to compare how close the emulation of the games on it is to MAME's emulation of the games, but I definitely heard from people who played it & complained about emulation problems. The lack of a single game not in MAME in that collection has me very suspicious that they just stole the roms & driver work from emulation sites & the MAME source. Peter Pepper's Ice Cream Factory is a rare DECO Cassette game & even though it's dumped & emulated in MAME, it's unlikely that they would have a copy of it but not have other cassette games.
Besides these games, there are tons of obscure arcade games that had limited releases or were only released in Japan from Taito (like Trampoline, Ball Park II, Warp-1, Top Bowler, Submarine, Space Cyclone, Speed Race GP V, Outer Zone, Tri-Attacker, Seafly, Sky Destroyer, etc.) Sega (Car Hunt, Daifugou, War Ball, Charon, Sega Sonic Cosmo Fighter Galaxy Patrol, Last Survivor, etc.) Jaleco (Super Strong Warriors, F1 Grand Prix Star 2 Jr.), Nichibutsu (Moon Alpha, Moon Raker, Moon Tracker, Moon Pulser, Moon Trek, Attacker, Bonpa, Stunt Car, etc), Irem (Huddle Up, Kozoutai Gaccho, Battle Bird, Wonder Hole, Itazura Angel, etc), Coreland (Senryaku Game Bopeep, Zippy Bug, etc), Exidy (Trapeze, Snapper, Vertigo, etc.), Universal (Mrs. Dynamite, Go! Go! Coaster, etc), Visco (Pastel island), Kaneko (Highway Jumper, Nexzr, Yuki Buta Man-P, etc), Seta (Variant Schwanzer), UPL, and others. As amazing the number of games that MAME emulated is, it's still sends an uneasy feeling that there may be an equal or great amount of games that are not emulated and could be lost forever.
And with all of this said, the roms in MAME aren't even legal to download unless you own the versions of the PCB they were dumped from. It would definitely be nice if the companies that own arcade games released them at cheap prices after having them perfectly emulated so that people won't forget them. But with all the games that have already been lost forever, all the companies that have gone out of business with the physical media misplaced, and copyrights that other companies may not want to release for cheap prices, I don't expect those games to be available to the public anytime soon if ever. This is why I support MAME & the hard work that the developers do for free on their own free time. With the rarity of arcade games being so much more than console games, I don't blame anyone for downloading arcade roms since many of those games are nearly impossible to find. Some of my favorites are action games from 1978-1984 & others from the 80's & early 90's like ATW's Mr. Kougar (how many people here have heard about ATW or its game Mr. Kougar); Sega's Spatter & N-Sub; Taito's Jolly Jogger, Rumba Lumber, Frog & Spiders, Chack'n Pop, Bubble Bobble series, Bonze Adventure, Liquid Kids, Chase HQ trilogy, Cycle Shooting, Cycle Mahbou, Daikaiju no Gyakushu, Indian Battle, and many others; Itisa Electronics' Botanic; Global Corporation's Join 'Em; Sanritsu's Rougien & Mermaid/Yachtsman; Amenip's Woodpecker, Naughty Mouse, and 800 Fathoms/Mariner; Kaneko's Boggy '84; Alpha Denshi's Kyros/Kyros no Yakata; Data East's Boogie Wings/The Great Ragtime Show (my #1 shmup of all time), Tumble Pop, Diet Go Go, Joe & Mac Returns, Edward Randy: The Cliffhanger, Captain America and the Avengers, and many more; Jaleco's Chameleon, Top Roller, and others; Tatsumi's TX-1, Big Fight, Round Up 5: Super Delta Force, Cycle Warriors, and others; Tehkan's Swimmer, Guzzler, and its various sports games; Nichibutsu's Kick Boy/Dacholer and others;and many many more from various companies. I'm sure the majority of people here have never heard of at least 95% of these games. The shame is that if they played them, I'm sure they'd like these games.
I don't like the new format of the show. It was better when the story & the monolog were mixed together.
On an interesting note you can now buy The simpsons arcade game on the Playstation store for $10
I'm entirely aware of Good Old Games. However, since PC games have proven much more resilient to changing technology (and with much less restrictive license-holders overall plus the existing concept of "abandonware" that doesn't exist at all in the console realm) they weren't the focus of this episode.
It's unsurprising that he doesn't know about Good Old Games when he isn't a PC gamer, at all.
Definitely a valid point. I like the idea of the Virtual Console and PSN releasing old titles for digital distribution however, the libraries have to continue to expand at a greater rate and the prices definitely need to be lower then what they are. PSN's library of old school games is a joke and the prices are way too high to justify buying any of those lack luster titles. The VC has a pretty decent list of titles but there's definitely room for improvement. The prices are also too high for my liking. 1500 Wii points for an N64 game??? I could buy it cheaper online or at a flea market. I feel games have to be below the $10 mark if not lower. $5 for an NES title is reasonable but I feel it could be lower as well because it's not as if they had to do any real work to put the game on there. A days worth at most. This is the main reason I haven't bought any VC titles as of yet. I do however, like that you can now use Club Nintendo coins to purchase VC titles. That was definitely a smart move however, the amount of coins you have to use to purchase is either 100 or 150 depending on the title, and I feel that it should be more along the lines of 50 or 75. They also need to pick just a list of games that can be purchased using coins as apposed to releasing a few titles only for a months period and then never again.
How about a digital distribution site dedicated to selling you good old games fully compatible with modern operating systems, with no DRM, bonus content like sound tracks, maps and artwork, and all for a good price and with a community ready and willing to help new players. Its called GoG. Its like a retro steam but better.
so... thats why emulators r aweome!
I love the idea of a retro steam!! Although I'd be out of money in like a week if they had the same type of sales xD
I'm glad he made a shout out to the game collections. I find them way better than down loading games. I wouldn't play obscure titles like my guilty pleasure growl if I didn't find it on taito heroes 2. I'd love to see a bigger nintedo collection disc, but I know that will never happen. That Mario collection does not count since it's just a port of an SNES game.
I was just listing some rare games... I think you are missing the point... I isn't as easy to find a real copy as it is to play illegally... and that is the whole problem...
The date given for Gilgameš isnt right, the story was originally written in sumerian, a language that had ceased to be a spoken language about 500 years before the date given. That date is probably when one of the later more elaborative semitic versions was completed. Mad props for exposing normal ppl to the realm of us history nerds tho.
Isnt Good Old Games pretty much the answer to this episode? (for the pc anyway)
Well I can certainly say that I am able to pop in DW1 and play. Same with DW2, 3, 4 and the original Final Fantasy. I love the classics :D